We Might Have to “Shut Down the Country”

David Remnick

The New Yorker

02/16/2025

The crisis moment comes when the Supreme Court rules and says, The Trump Administration has flagrantly disregarded a clear judicial order, and thou must comply. And if they don’t comply, then we’re in a different moment.

I realize I’m repeating myself, but: play that moment out.

We have to exhaust all the remedies. We have to get fines. We have to ask for incarceration of individuals who flagrantly disregard judicial orders.

And that includes?

And that includes the federal-agency heads.

And it also includes the President of the United States, does it not?

He himself or the Vice-President? Sure, sure. No one’s above the law, right? Now, if we do not succeed, let’s say no one comes—the cavalry doesn’t ride—

Then what?

Then we’ve got to take to the streets in a different way. We’ve got to shut down this country.

What does that mean?

We’re just beginning to think it through. We’re talking with colleagues and other organizations. There’s got to be a moment when people of good will will just say, This is way too far.

What’s the historical precedent for that anywhere?

Well, there have been efforts. Marbury v. Madison—the case in which the government tried to snub its nose at the role of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court was not yet as powerful or as established an institution as today. You also had F.D.R., who tried to pack the Court. It’s not new that Presidents bristle at judicial oversight. Clinton passed some of the most egregious court-stripping measures, like the law on prison reform, where he basically tried to get the courts out of the business of looking at prisoners’-rights cases or immigrants’-rights cases.

But I can just hear the listener’s mind saying, O.K., that was Bill Clinton, and that was bad enough. This is a person, an executive, a politician of a very, very different order.

Totally agree. And we’ve got to take it one step at a time.

When you say “shut the country down” and take to the streets, who’s doing that? Because I have to tell you, this time around, so far—and we’re not even a month into this—the number of people that you sense have decided things are so complicated, difficult, or awful, and have decided to shut politics out of their mind—“I’m not watching the news,” you hear this—is alarming.

It is alarming, but it’s also true that it’s evolving. I mean, for instance, we had a town hall recently. Fifty thousand people turned up. Largest number ever, even compared to Trump One.

It’s a self-selecting group, though.

Yeah, but that still shows you that there’s more energy there. There’s more of a heartbeat. I wouldn’t give up on the patient just yet. There’s more of a pulse.

Let’s go back to the phrase “shut the country down” that you used. What does that mean?

I think you have to call on, for instance, corporate leaders. We’ll have to yank them into the pool with us if they believe that part of what is going to protect good corporate interests or the workings of the economy is the rule of law. There’s got to be a moment when people are saying, Can you countenance this?

President Biden had a number of instances when he bristled at judicial oversight and judicial review. He hated the effort to shut down his student-loan program. It’s one of his signature programs. He never got it through, because the courts got in his way.

But it’s really quite another matter when there’s a final order, from the highest court of the land, and the President just says, Doesn’t bother me. I don’t have to heed you or hear you. That is a moment when I think we’ll be able to harvest the opinions of people, and get people engaged in a very different way.